節食一定掉肌肉? - 健身

Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2017-02-25T01:09

Table of Contents


為了端正風氣,在下決定花錢去看最原始的論文(版權因素只略顯示本文幾行,
請版上大德見諒):
http://imgur.com/a/SGUiW

※ 引述《circlelee (非斷不可)》之銘言:
: 節食一定掉肌肉? 原則可能是如此,但節食再加上重訓呢?
: i'm sorry,答案可能不是如你想的那樣。來看下列的研究,看是不是肌肉掉光光。
: http://cristivlad.com/resistance-training-under-caloric-
: restriction-enhances-muscle-maintenance/
: Resistance Training under Caloric Restriction Enhances Muscle Maintenance
: 受試者
: 40 obese women, randomly assigned to four different groups
: 四組
: 控制組 control (C)
: 節食組 diet without exercise (DO)
: 節食加重訓組 diet + weight training (DPE)
: 重訓組 weight training without diet (EO)
: 時間
: 8-week weight-loss study
: 節食餐
: Subjects' baseline energy requirements were calculated at 2,200-2,500 kcals
: per day and then reduced by 1,000 kcals for the calorie restricted groups.

圈李沒寫到的是:
The specific dietary protocol was a modification of the dietary
exchange program of the American Diabetes Association in which
subjects choose foods from different categories.
The nutritionally balanced diet consisted of 50% carbohydrate,
27% protein, and 23% fat and included a daily protein supplement.

而這個 protein supplement 是:
Protein supplements were given to the two diet groups to ensure protein
intake >=1.0 g/kg body wt. The protein supplement, taken with 8 oz
(0.24 L) nonfat milk, supplied 25 g/d of high-quality protein (60% of
recommended dietary allowance [RDA]) and ~50% of the RDA for vitamins
A, B-6, B12, C, D, and E and three minerals: calcium, iron, and
phosphorus.

您看看,這麼重要的敘述被圈李忽略?這麼大量(確保每日都有 >=1g/kg)的
蛋白質以及必要營養素在支持著 DO 以及 DPE 兩組人... 如果沒有這個蛋白質
的量以及營養素來實施低熱量攝取加重訓呢?

: 重訓菜單
: As for the exercising protocol, the subjects from EO and DPE had to do
: resistance training 3 times a week. Each session included:
: – bench press
: – inverse leg press
: – lateral pulldown
: – biceps curls
: – triceps extension
: – calf raises
: – leg extension
: – hamstring curl
: They had to do 3 sets of each exercise: the first 2 sets consisting of 10
: repetitions, while the last set required doing repetitions to failure. Once
: the subjects were able to complete more than 12 repetitions in the third set,
: resistance (load) had to be increased. I suspect they were shooting for
: anaerobic training.
: 結論
: 請看連結裡的圖示,有用紅筆圈起來
: 控制組什麼都沒啥變
: 節食組瘦了4-5kg,但也確掉了1kg肌肉
: 重訓組體重沒啥變,肌肉成長了1kg
: 最精采的節食加重訓組呢?
: 體脂掉最多,但肌肉卻沒啥動,還稍微增加了一點點
: 也就是說跟節食組比,肌肉沒掉
: 跟重訓組比,卻減了很多脂肪,可以說同時結合了這兩組的優點
: 而且節食加重訓組的力量跟純重訓組也差不多,都提升了一些,比控制組跟節食組高
直接說論文最後的結論:
An important finding of this study is the lack of interaction
between the diet and exercise treatments (Table 6). The data
suggest that the order of presentation of the treatments would
not greatly affect the end result. For example, one could reduce
caloric intake for 8 wk and then resistance weight train for 8 wk
and obtain the same results as found by dieting and exercising
concurrently.
Support for this position can be found in Tables 1, 3, and 4 where,
in most cases, adding the DO and EO group changes yields a result
very similar to the DPE group changes.
簡譯:飲食控制(低卡)與運動(重訓)無互動關係。您可以先飲食控制
八週然後恢復正常飲食運動八週,所得的結果是與同時飲食控制加重訓
相同。
所以您也別急著開心,畢竟這個實驗只是為了證明飲食控制與運動兩者是
獨立事件,那個先做那個後做,跟同時做的結果相同,但請別忘了,這個
實驗在飲食控制方面非常嚴謹,尤其是低卡組有蛋白質及營養素的補充。

: 筆者最後也有提到
: Had these subjects have their dietary protocol optimized away from a
: high-carb regimen, I suspect results would've been even more significant.
: What I am eager to see is studies conducted on healthy lean adult subjects
: following a well formulated low calorie high-fat (60%-70%), low protein
: (15%-25%), very-low-carb (10-15%) ketogenic protocol (keto-adapted would be
: even better) doing resistance weight training in comparison with other
: significantly different protocols.
: 似乎暗示生同或低碳飲食的效果會更不一樣。
: 有人認為我是節食加重訓,ok有這樣的研究,不掉肌肉有很意外嗎?
這個實驗的對象是 40 位女性,身體密碼如下:
Forty obese female subjects (mean ± SEM, weight = 75.1 ± 1.1 kg,
percent fat = 35.9 ± 0.9%, height = 166.4 ± 1.4 cm,
age = 32.9 ± 1.5 y).
Vlad 君只是好奇如果實驗改成清瘦的成人使用低熱量高脂低蛋白非常低碳水
的飲食加重訓會有什麼結果,不代表他有什麼奇特的暗示。

: 很有趣的是這段,筆者說.....
: Caloric restriction is uncool. It usually leads to increased hunger, bad
: mood, and cold limbs among others (not if you're keto-adapted). Plus, the
: power of the supplement industry and bro-science were almost always dictating
: the trend. If you don’t train 3-4 times a week 1-2 hours every session and
: if you don’t consume a ton of protein, you will lose muscle and you will die
: (please excuse my sarcasm).
: 哈哈,真的滿好笑的。

我不知道到底是誰笑誰,但看到一篇實驗摘要就高潮才令我想笑。

--
Tags: 健身

All Comments

Carol avatar
By Carol
at 2017-03-02T00:49
他是不是以為Cristi Vlad就是論文的作者...
Bethany avatar
By Bethany
at 2017-03-03T00:18
他大概是想說看到有東西支持自己的亂搞,就趕快PO上來了
Thomas avatar
By Thomas
at 2017-03-04T21:32
說到底也只是野人獻曝
Donna avatar
By Donna
at 2017-03-06T18:02
而且人家實驗一不低碳 二不斷食 還吃蛋白粉
Poppy avatar
By Poppy
at 2017-03-08T11:46
自己買論文...此風大可長,感謝E大的貢獻
Leila avatar
By Leila
at 2017-03-09T20:51
蛤 jack大你不知道甚麼 hub ?
Agnes avatar
By Agnes
at 2017-03-13T22:48
我錯了第一行有寫自己買 orz
Quanna avatar
By Quanna
at 2017-03-14T12:27
大大端正風氣,某人一直想找研究替他半套飲食背書。
Steve avatar
By Steve
at 2017-03-16T15:20
圈李常常斷章取義超嚴重,又愛說的跟真的一樣。
Hedda avatar
By Hedda
at 2017-03-19T23:16
什麼重點中的重點,30年前的研究 你要他怎麼同怎麼斷
Sierra Rose avatar
By Sierra Rose
at 2017-03-21T18:17
old你沒看我用"筆者"嗎? 為何老做不負責任的臆測
Suhail Hany avatar
By Suhail Hany
at 2017-03-24T11:39
不過還是謝謝原po補充,我的確漏掉這些訊息~
Oliver avatar
By Oliver
at 2017-03-28T03:06
原po太用心!!
Jessica avatar
By Jessica
at 2017-03-28T19:12
圈李你到現在還不懂嗎?真是誇張...
Edwina avatar
By Edwina
at 2017-04-01T01:02
我的那篇有附原文pdf檔,不用錢。
Charlie avatar
By Charlie
at 2017-04-04T12:13
http://i.imgur.com/pUAp6Sw.jpg
Belly avatar
By Belly
at 2017-04-09T01:26
我要去驗了,你啥時?圈李
Hazel avatar
By Hazel
at 2017-04-09T07:01
圈李原本不丟原文,感覺是要刻意誤導??
Susan avatar
By Susan
at 2017-04-11T07:44
啊之前就沒找到啊,剛隨便點點就看到免費的
Suhail Hany avatar
By Suhail Hany
at 2017-04-13T02:29
用google scholar隨便查 calorie restriction
Delia avatar
By Delia
at 2017-04-16T22:32
一堆正面研究擺在那邊,這邊還一堆人整天在罵節食
我不過我要強調,節食,但營養要夠
Yedda avatar
By Yedda
at 2017-04-20T19:18
減少卡路里攝取,對人體是會有一定的幫助,非常多研究
Eden avatar
By Eden
at 2017-04-24T00:45
整天擔心吃不夠,節食就是錯,這也是迷思
Ingrid avatar
By Ingrid
at 2017-04-28T18:17
有文章直接講
Caloric Restriction + Exercise = Longer Life
我並非去宣揚節食多好多好,不是的。
Carolina Franco avatar
By Carolina Franco
at 2017-04-29T09:47
但你認為節食就是錯,節食就是不好,這樣就不對了。
Daph Bay avatar
By Daph Bay
at 2017-05-02T13:55
Caloric restriction and muscle regeneration
Rachel avatar
By Rachel
at 2017-05-02T22:48
大家多看看一些文章,應該會對節食有新的認識
Anonymous avatar
By Anonymous
at 2017-05-03T08:49
你當大家都沒看??到現在你還是不明白大家反的不是「斷
食」,而是反你用「直覺」來判斷是否在斷食下吃足夠營養
Cara avatar
By Cara
at 2017-05-08T07:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO5S2J2-3ek
Leila avatar
By Leila
at 2017-05-12T12:04
吃糖,你直覺會騙你沒吃飽,跑生酮,酮體會騙你你飽了。
Faithe avatar
By Faithe
at 2017-05-16T05:44
懂嗎!
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2017-05-20T13:39
麻煩請你去看一下影片
Candice avatar
By Candice
at 2017-05-22T12:14
直覺是你講的,我是說要傾聽身體的聲音
Adele avatar
By Adele
at 2017-05-26T19:59
我什麼時候說用直覺…
啊我就引申他的觀點呀
Heather avatar
By Heather
at 2017-05-27T00:08
奶油鮑伯看過很多次了...,怎?
Ina avatar
By Ina
at 2017-05-27T11:25
你這次要改「直覺」的定義=_=,下次是否要改「健康」的
定義?
Audriana avatar
By Audriana
at 2017-05-31T13:23
題目,假如八分飽有利健康,要如何判斷八手飽。
Megan avatar
By Megan
at 2017-05-31T19:34
上面八手 > 八分
這個『八分』,我甚至能用學理上解釋。
Ursula avatar
By Ursula
at 2017-06-02T18:10
但不知道預估量,如何判定就很形而上了 ..
Gilbert avatar
By Gilbert
at 2017-06-07T03:47
圈李:傾聽身體的聲音,胃會大聲說「八分了!」XD
Annie avatar
By Annie
at 2017-06-11T07:19
反對 tdee 大前提下,要憑直覺想科學,難 XD
Oscar avatar
By Oscar
at 2017-06-13T04:18
不然我讀那麼多 data 背那麼數據太閒了啊 ...
Audriana avatar
By Audriana
at 2017-06-17T19:12
大師要少吃點鹽喔~~~
Sarah avatar
By Sarah
at 2017-06-22T11:38
你確定你要跟我探討 micro ?
我這陣子讀的是 micro 和粒腺體的關係
Hardy avatar
By Hardy
at 2017-06-23T14:24
你要不要看一下限制卡洛里是到什麼程度,有沒有吃到BMR?現
Todd Johnson avatar
By Todd Johnson
at 2017-06-24T18:30
代人、歐美人基本上吃到一天10000卡很簡單,你知道嗎?
Robert avatar
By Robert
at 2017-06-26T06:13
少吃點鹽,才不會太"閒"
Suhail Hany avatar
By Suhail Hany
at 2017-06-30T11:24
圈李你還是多吃一點,才不會「神X不X」
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2017-07-03T07:55
只有圈李你才太閒好嗎
Caroline avatar
By Caroline
at 2017-07-04T09:54
作等水桶XDDDDD
Kyle avatar
By Kyle
at 2017-07-07T01:24
直覺就直覺 在那什麼聽自己身體聲音講起來要唬誰
Delia avatar
By Delia
at 2017-07-07T03:22
\水桶/\水桶/\水桶/\水桶/
Hardy avatar
By Hardy
at 2017-07-11T02:04
你先攪好你的浮腫再跟我談營養,別侮辱營養
Jack avatar
By Jack
at 2017-07-11T22:48
誰來給我翻譯翻譯什麼是傾聽身體的聲音?什麼是直覺?
Eartha avatar
By Eartha
at 2017-07-16T10:59
傾聽身體的聲音不是直覺是什麼? 不要笑死人
William avatar
By William
at 2017-07-17T18:58
http://i.imgur.com/O5lrS1I.jpg
我靠直覺預算份量和煮食,選我正解(舉手
Vanessa avatar
By Vanessa
at 2017-07-22T11:25
以上有蛋,奶,肉,魚,豆,菜,根,穀,油
Todd Johnson avatar
By Todd Johnson
at 2017-07-26T21:02
m大好豐盛的一餐
Ursula avatar
By Ursula
at 2017-07-31T19:43
受教了!!
Hedwig avatar
By Hedwig
at 2017-08-04T12:39
版主,這還不桶?
Daniel avatar
By Daniel
at 2017-08-08T16:49
不否認直覺是能培養的,但那得經過千萬次反覆的實作並與
實際度量做比較才能培養起來的。
Annie avatar
By Annie
at 2017-08-10T02:06
他都名正言順的推廣節食了,我看不出來有什麼模糊空間了
一桶天下太平,二桶風調雨順,三桶國泰民安
Frederic avatar
By Frederic
at 2017-08-12T14:24
m大煮的食物看起來好美味
Connor avatar
By Connor
at 2017-08-14T13:56
傾聽身體的聲音 不是直覺 那是啥?
Jake avatar
By Jake
at 2017-08-15T02:03
那是餅皮還是蛋皮呀?
Hedda avatar
By Hedda
at 2017-08-15T12:49
coffee大 ,那是可麗餅皮
Hamiltion avatar
By Hamiltion
at 2017-08-19T14:46
三色豆是我的大魔王(掩面)
Necoo avatar
By Necoo
at 2017-08-21T23:36
刻意誤導,可以進捅了吧
Thomas avatar
By Thomas
at 2017-08-25T19:07
我漏掉是我的錯,但大於1g/kg蛋白質這叫大量?
Zanna avatar
By Zanna
at 2017-08-30T17:09
一般女生50kg,一天吃50g的蛋白質,這叫大量?
Olga avatar
By Olga
at 2017-09-01T07:16
我男60kg一天吃60g蛋白質算很大量的蛋白質嗎?
Oscar avatar
By Oscar
at 2017-09-01T17:04
我若每天都吃天然營養的肉、菜、好碳水
雖然吃的少,但還是會malnutrition嗎?
Tracy avatar
By Tracy
at 2017-09-06T09:03
不吃那些健康食品、維他命 我就會malnutrition嗎?
Lydia avatar
By Lydia
at 2017-09-08T12:09
你是不是也該檢討自己的用詞是否過於誇飾
Enid avatar
By Enid
at 2017-09-10T21:46
樓上的炸雞,有益身心,大讚
別侮辱營養學
Gary avatar
By Gary
at 2017-09-11T17:21
Cristi Vlad 本身還有寫斷食跟ketone的書
Suhail Hany avatar
By Suhail Hany
at 2017-09-12T21:23
你說他完全沒有任何的暗示?也太武斷了吧
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2017-09-15T20:10
減肥師雖然不能以身作則,最少懂得背書
Ivy avatar
By Ivy
at 2017-09-19T13:37
他擺明就是說ketogenic protocol,你卻說完全沒暗示?
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2017-09-23T20:42
如果你要強調節食不掉肌肉是因為吃了>=1g/kg蛋白質
Belly avatar
By Belly
at 2017-09-27T13:36
以及一些維他命等,那我真的沒話說了。
Edith avatar
By Edith
at 2017-09-27T16:07
更何況純節食組,一樣有吃到營養補充品,一樣掉肌肉啊
Faithe avatar
By Faithe
at 2017-10-01T21:59
所以重點明明是在重訓,為何你講得好像都是營養的幫助
Tristan Cohan avatar
By Tristan Cohan
at 2017-10-06T17:07
假設肌肉是房子 重訓是工程 營養是工人 沒人要蓋個屁?
Kama avatar
By Kama
at 2017-10-11T16:14
x91大,攪形而上的可以用念力,參考 X 教授
Yedda avatar
By Yedda
at 2017-10-12T04:33
有道理(頓悟

Ingrid avatar
By Ingrid
at 2017-02-24T22:26
我是否已經詳讀置底文及精華區中的新手專區:是 基本資料 性別:女 年齡:27 身高:165 體重:58.9 BMI:21.6 體脂率:25.7(生理期前) 參考照片:(可免填,但抱怨自己太壯或肌肉太大塊者必填) 三餐內容:熱量估算易受餐飲的原物料、份量、製程手法影響,請儘可能量化並描述 ...

節食一定掉肌肉?

Anthony avatar
By Anthony
at 2017-02-24T21:45
節食一定掉肌肉? 原則可能是如此,但節食再加上重訓呢? iand#39;m sorry,答案可能不是如你想的那樣。來看下列的研究,看是不是肌肉掉光光。 http://cristivlad.com/resistance-training-under-caloric- restriction-enhance ...

睡前騎飛輪是否影響睡眠

Bethany avatar
By Bethany
at 2017-02-24T08:43
我是否已經詳讀置底文及精華區中的版規:是 ↑此行若未填或刪除,文章就會被刪除。 ==============================以上禁止刪除================================= 請問各位前輩 最近有計畫購買室內飛輪車 在睡前進行約一小時的運動 但又擔心影響睡眠 ...

如何"刻意的"流失肌肉?

Skylar DavisLinda avatar
By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2017-02-24T06:50
我跟朋友都有在跑馬,所以可以來稍微回答一下這個問題.... 跑馬會不會拆上半身的肌肉?..答案是會... 但是跟空腹跑沒關係,只要你長期的跑步,然後不去鍛鍊上半身,當你瘦下來的時候 上半身就會沒肌肉,就是那種 肚子可以看到六塊肌根線條..但是伏地挺身還有引體向上 做不起來..XD , 然後體脂肪大概10左 ...

如何"刻意的"流失肌肉?

Skylar Davis avatar
By Skylar Davis
at 2017-02-24T05:31
這個問題,就像在聊and#34;如何快速變窮,燒光你的積蓄?and#34;一樣的有趣 健康吃而且認真運動,有可能會掉肌肉? 有可能,我想到的就是馬拉松選手,尤其是注意到他們的手臂肌肉。但他們並非and#34;刻意and#34;讓 上半身肌肉流失,也許肌肉從未流失,只是缺乏上半身訓練而已。 有沒有an ...